First, let me say how great it has been the past few days to see the level of bloggage increasing again on this site. It was a sad and lonely few weeks there, whistling into the darkness, hoping no monsters lurked in the bushes or beneath the beds. Having said that, a number of the blogs and comments have brought to the forefront for me a topic that has been percolating for some time now.
What are we looking for here?
Great ideas?
Great writers?
Members who are involved?
I say "all of the above".
In all of our contests, including DtD, the stories being pitched must contain good, solid ideas. They must have a story that will appeal to at least a reasonable number of readers or it will not gain community (or really any other) support. Perhaps an Orson Scott Card, Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman could get away with writing a story that did not have a great idea but I don't see any of them lurking around these halls, banging pots and trying to get noticed.
So the idea is a given. Anyone can come up with an idea (or so one theory goes - we'll give this thought the benefit of the doubt for now). Does the potential winner have to be able to write too? I say yes, unless they are collaborating with another writer, or willing to let someone else take over. And this kind of flies in the face of what Z2H is trying to accomplish here. Isn't the main idea to turn Zeros into Heroes? If everyone makes some money along the way this is fine, but the company is not just buying ideas and cutting the creators out. Each of the winners so far has been VERY actively involved in the creations of our stories. mariathedreamer has stated (I'm paraphrasing here) that she would not vote for a pitch unless she could see some of the script. I agree with her wholeheartedly. I don't necessarily need to see 22 pages but I need to see enough to form an opinion on the writers ability to tell a story. A story starts with an idea, but there is much more to it than that.
So that leaves us the final component. Involvement. Should we, as members of this community be voting for pitches that have been put up by members who are no longer active? On the other hand should we ignore them just for that reason? Everyone will have their own thoughts on this, I am sure, but I will share mine. The creator must be active in the community and must be actively engaged in working on their pitch in order to have my support. They don't need to be as involved as Titan.inc or Crackwalker (or as Fetternity used to be before he got busy on vacations and working on two CCCN books at once!), nor do they need to put up sixteen blogs in 24 hours like Puff Daddy (I kid because I love RP and all pub is good, right?) but they need to let us know they are alive.
If the creator doesn't care enough to update their pitch or be at least a little involved why should I care about their book for them?
Now, does this mean we should ignore good works from currently inactive people? Certainly not! To give just one example, when I started reading the pitches, way back in October and November I remember really enjoying a book called Mind Crimes by genrewriter. He kind of wandered away for a while, (new baby on the way and other stuff in his life, as I recall) and when CCCN started up his book was not getting any love. Like no votes at all for the first few weeks. Finally one day I either blogged about it, or mentioned this in a response to someone else's blog and Yen replied, something to the effect, "Well why don't you let him know?" So I did. I sent Nick a PM and he was back just like that. He hadn't even known CCCN was up and running. Lo and behold, in just a few short weeks he had won. And deservedly so. Mind Crimes is a great story and is going to be an awesome comic. And so are all the other CCCN winners.
I can say this with some degree of certainty because all the books sprung from a great idea, all the winners can write, and all of them are active, caring members of this community!
Comments
10:24 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
For regular submissions, you do actually create something, send it off, and then walk away from it. You have to. If you were to try sending editors constant pitch updates and revisions, they’d reject you so fast your head would spin. But this isn’t the place for “regular” submissions. This is the place where a community of likeminded people come together and help each other get their stories created. No one here is treated like a zero and everyone wants to see everyone else become a hero…if they truly have the passion to make it happen. But passion isn’t enough, either. As Tenzil and Fett said, a good pitch doesn’t automatically equal a good comic. You have to show that you can tell the story in comic script form. I don’t need to see 22 pages (in fact, I’d rather not since I’d prefer to read the comic when it gets published), but I do need to see 5 to 10 pages to know if the creator has what it takes. Then I vote. Blogging is important because it makes me know the person, makes me care. I sadly don’t have the time to read every new pitch that comes along, but I usually read the pitches of people who blog regularly. I haven’t created any blogs myself lately, but I’ve still been very active in commenting in other people’s blogs and I think that’s an equally important way to be a member of the community. So, yeah, I agree with Tenzil's answer to his questions. 'All of the above'.
14:12 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
Always the voice of reason, eh, Tenzil? I feel a slight bit differently than you, however, being that I have had a different experience than you. Great stories come from great writers, and that's what this is about. However, many great writers will hide themselves away in a closet in front of a computer screen as they type whatever's in their heart (I can sometimes be this type of writer). That is not to say that if they aren't active their book will receive success if their book is good. You have to be a publicity machine to get anywhere in life regardless of profession. If you don't know how to sell yourself, nothing will come to you. All I'm saying is that just because they're not active here, they may have a reason (like I explained in one of my posts).
15:31 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
The path to success out there in the rest of the world is different than it is here on Z2H. Success on Z2H has its own rules, and we are discovering exactly what those are as we go. The site admins have put things in place, but they can't know exactly what will happen on here on any given day. Our little community has made its way to this point with blogging and pitching and voting and rating and messaging... (COFF*COFF*and*sacrificing*small*animals*to*the*cabal*COFF*COFF) ...but that could all change in a couple of weeks when the books go live. I'm really excited to see what happens when we've got our books out there and people come to check out our wares, and kick the tires of Z2H a bit. But even with a larger community, Z2H is still about making your presence felt here on the website. It is different from pitching to a publisher, because as Genrewriter pointed out, making a lot of noise would just annoy them. (I can attest to that) The set up here involves the vox populi, and you need to motivate people and excite them through your own force of will.
16:18 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
Good stuff, TK. On the other hand, I can see what Steve is saying but I somewhat disagree and this is why. Great stories do come from great writers, but that isn't what comics is about. As a writer I know how it can be to hide away (believe it or not) and get sucked up into whatever I'm doing. That's great. Go right a novel or screenplay or something. However, IN COMICS it's all about ACTIVITY. Look at Stan Lee! In his heyday he was writing for six books simultaneously AND doing his own publicity and marketing and the whole nine. It's amazing he ever had time to sleep. Of course, times have changed. But the basic premise hasn't. No one cares about how fan-orientated/interactive a novelist is with his readers or a script writer is with his viewing public. In fact, in the later you can be almost completely nonexistent to his viewing public. Comics, however, are a different matter. First of all, it is true that a great writer is an important asset but even a decent writer can have a successful comic series if the artist is great. In fact, I've seen crappy writing sell because of an amazing artist. In fact, half the time people only skim through new books before buying them. They usually buy them on the basis of the art first (or word of mouth) and then keep buying them as long as the art is either good enough to justify the mediocre or crappy writing or the writing is good enough to justify continued purchases. Meanwhile, fans and companies expect you to attend Comicons to promote your new books, answer fan mail, take interviews, hit up sites where comic fans frequent, and promote it in any way possible if you are looking to be successful. Comics more than movies, books, or TV are hyped by word of mouth. Comic buyers are a picky bunch and your comic may never see the light of day unless you let people know it exists. Heck, built into the design of even getting into the comic industry, the successful new comic writers are usually the ones that are the "go-getters." You can't just sit back, write, and have an agent sell your stuff (at least the average writer looking to break into the industry can't). You have to first have the money to finance it or be able to sell the idea to a group of artist that will be willing to work for free or write and illustrate it all yourself (neither of those easy tasks). Then, you need to be able to sell the idea again, this time to a company willing to take the idea and run with it. Then, you need to sell the idea to comic buyers. Granted, the publisher company may help with this, but if you really want to hype it and get people interested you need to actively reach out for your and to your fans. On again, granted, if you are working with a well known IP this may not be as vital. Nevertheless, that is not the case with any of the pitches on this site. Basically, comic book fans want to know that they are cared about and that they matter. You aren't, and this is important so let me repeat it... The best writers don't just sell a comic. They sell themselves. Great established writers only need their name on the cover to sell books and that's great. But in order to get there people have to know your name in the first place. Connecting with your fans in a huge thing in the comic world. The best way to do that is to get word out about your work and be visible enough that people will know who you are and what you are working on.
16:19 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
So I say successful comic writers ARE ACTIVE. Now does that mean they need to be active on this site? Not necessarily. But it can be a gauge to how active they will be if they get the deal. I mean, come on! You people are vying for a comic book creation! I'd be promoting the crap out of my work right now and doing whatever I can to get people excited about it. Of course, I'm not trying to pick on anyone. Still, I'm glad to see that you are back Steve and talking up what you got going. Likewise, RPulfer and Dan013 have been active which is great. However, I personally have no love for pitches who don't have the support of their creators. (If their creators aren't going to support them how can they expect us to?) If you can't spend a few minutes on a site at least AFTER you've been selected as a finalist for a comic book contract then I don't really know if you do deserve to win. I see plenty of deserving ACTIVE members up for selection with very solid pitches. In the end, inactivity can easily be taken as either disinterest, disconnect, or the writer being snobby. I know, us writers mostly aren't actually although we do get that from time to time. Still, I think people should vote for those who actually care about their pitches, this opportunity, and THEIR community and fans and it is up to THEM to show that. Even just one blog would be nice just to let us know that you are alive and we aren't giving the contract to someone that has decided to do something else with their life or something. So I say, yes. You should get passed up if you aren't willing to at least take three minutes out of your day to post a blog to thank Z2H for the opportunity and tell people to vote for your pitch... or even just blog to tell us you are still alive. I know I'm probably being overly harsh but is that really too much to ask for?
19:14 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
I pretty much agree with everybody above, at least partly. I do think active members deserve more of a shot (and always feel guilty when I'm reading/following the blogs and not posting much -- it feels ungrateful somehow). I also agree that you have to promote yourself in any industry. I don't believe there's any such thing as a writing career without being able to do this to some degree. Even if you have an agent (at least in the film world) you really have to have your own leads and people to pitch to, etc. etc. Until you're Charlie Kaufman or whatever. Even in the tiny market that is poetry publishing, you have to get yourself out there. Once you have a book out, and maybe have a great initial push/book launch to get the work out there, it really becomes on you to keep interest/buzz going. (Hence my master plan when my new book comes out to make buttons as swag... I love buttons, and have access to a button-maker!) [tumbleweed] I'm the only one who LOVES BUTTONS?! Anyway. I do feel like a lot of people aren't very good at this. And I can see why -- for many of us, self-promotion doesn't come naturally. I think I've said this before (on maria's blog about personal websites?) but self-promotion can quickly feel cynical. But it's just a matter of having your voice heard, right? Letting people know they have the option of being interested in you! Otherwise, how will they know? This is the great thing about Z2H self-promotion... you really just have to be part of the conversation.
22:31 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
psst - I too have a button maker and love button-related swag! I had typed out a big fancy response to this thread, but I think I'll just start a new post...
00:54 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Take two, as I didn't know of the quotation glich: Always the voice of reason, eh, Tenzil? I feel a slight bit differently than you, however, being that I have had a different experience than you. Great stories come from great writers, and that's what this is about. However, many great writers will hide themselves away in a closet in front of a computer screen as they type whatever's in their heart (I can sometimes be this type of writer). That is not to say that if they aren't active their book will receive success if their book is good. You have to be a publicity machine to get anywhere in life regardless of profession. If you don't know how to sell yourself, nothing will come to you. All I'm saying is that just because they're not active here, they may have a reason (like I explained in one of my posts). Rate them honestly, however you get to the page. Don't worry about whether you know their name or not. This breeds favoritism and strays from (in my opinion) the reason this site exists. It's ‘Zeros 2 Heroes’ not ‘Well-Known Amateurs 2 Guys Who've Been Published’. High ratings, buzz you don't except, etc.: It's all just a boot to the ass to keep you going. And, there are certain people that get overlooked for whatever reason and leave. It doesn't mean we should ignore them. No, indeed. If anything, it means we need to do everything in our power to get their attention back to the site. And, as for updating pitches, sometimes this shouldn't be a punishment. You say it's required to show enthusiasm, but I have to disagree. Sometimes you finish something, you take a few steps back, and you're happy about it. There's a reason I will never update my two pitches ‘Floor 26’ and ‘Jukebox Hero’: They're done. I'm done with them. All I'm doing is waiting for the next phase on the project (a wish that will probably never come true for Jukebox Hero). I guess my point is that we should encourage enthusiasm and creativity, not community fluff. I may not be the most active member on this site (especially with my random hiatuses), but I can damn near assure you that I am one of the most enthusiastic people here on this site about what I do. Matt Toner once told me ‘If you could harness your enthusiasm, we could power a city.’ And, considering this is a site for creators to get their big break, I feel that enthusiasm and vision are more important than activity within the community. Not only for comics, but for the community itself. Let me put it this way: Which do you think would get a bigger audience to check out the site (therefor giving us all bigger chances for our big break): ‘Frank Miller came from Z2H.’ or ‘This guy named Steven Menszer is hanging out at Z2H’? You get what I'm saying. Sorry if I ranted for a long time. You know better than most that I'm long-winded.
01:01 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Jessica and Jennica, besides having similar-sounding names, both have a thing for pieces of flair. That's a scary proposition. Steven is damn right when he says that enthusiasm is one of the major points a creator must have. I'd add to that that within the context of this site and its campaigns, it's also primordial to show it to a certain extent. Z2H is unique in that the dynamic of the site is about bringing everyone up, not attempting to stand on other people's heads in order to be seen and/or heard. This is an incredible ego boost for anyone, knowing you can write something and get honest AND positively reinforcing criticism. As long as we've got writers here willing to present their stuff, and fellows willing to rate them fairly, enthusiasm will always be at an all-time high.
01:22 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Being someone who is not in the industry, I am approaching Z2H as my intro to the comic publishing world. I never tried approaching comic publishers mainly because I wanted to be able to discuss a pitch with other writers and get feedback on what does and does not work. Printing off my pitches and sending them to Marvel/DC/Image/etc might go somewhere, but really what am I doing... just sending them to a PO Box somewhere... waiting for someone to read them when they have a free moment? What feedback do I get? How do I know what worked and what didn't? What did I learn? Who knows unless I pester them daily... or hourly... maybe even by the minute? You can't argue with the immediate feedback that is available from the Z2H community (good or bad), even the smallest comments in the Pitch Doctor dash help out. Now, I haven't been the greater blogger/commenter since joining but I'm beginning to see the value in it and trying to increase my blogging beyond "Read Me". Without the involvement of the community you have just another site that accepts uploads, has some offline reviewers and takes votes. My thoughts.
03:14 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Wow. Anyone touch a nerve lately. I(as usual) am going to strattle the fence on this one. Why? 1. I agree that a certain amount of attention and participation should be requisite on the site. However, I also agree that if some one has an idea that is good but have deserted the site that this should be an opportunity to reel them back. I myself have clearly not been as active lately(judging by my slide power rating)so I can understand when one gets distracted by life and things. When opportunity knocks and they don't come back then I don't think they should get anything, but, in the case of say Mind Crimes where the creator had been absent all it took was for someone to drop him a note to let him know the pitch was actually getting some attention and he came charging back and continues to be an active member. If Mind Crimes had been climbing the charts and he only came back half heartedly I don't think things would have gone so nicely for him, as they shouldn't have. Nope changed my mind. You should be active to win. However, you should be given the opprtunity to come back and show your enthusiasm. As genrewriter, and dan013, and steve have. That said is Z2H gonna blanket email any and all who have signed up to inform them 'GAME ON' when round 2 kicks in? Or do we have to rely on Tenzil keeping vigil and dropping a note?
03:16 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
well, not for me. I may not be as active but I still look in at least once a day. Try to leave a blog or a note or two(apparently not enough--flipflopper, what the hell is that? Where did my rating go? Arrrgh.)
04:08 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Yeah I'm a Panel Picasso myself. Gonna have to spend an hour rating that thing back up to Hero again.
07:43 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Thanks all for your input, and the blog is still open if anyone else wishes to chime in. To Steven I'd like to say that I didn't mean to imply you had to change your (completed) story pitches in order to make us notice it. What I'm saying is that you need to be at least semi-active here on the site. Blog, respond to blogs, point out some cute behind the scenes thing about your pitch, tell us why we should care about Frank and Cecile, anything! You have good ideas, you're a good writer and we're very lucky to have you around! Personally I'm thrilled you're back.
07:46 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
Titan, I usually agree with your posts, but I can’t agree that people will keep buying comics in a series “as long as the art is good enough to justify the mediocre or crappy writing.” At least I hope it’s not true. And I know it’s not true for me and all the readers I’ve talked to (many of whom aren’t creators like us). Yes, everyone will pick up and buy a book because of cool or amazing artwork, but if the writing is bad, they’ll stop buying after the second issue (unless they specifically buy everything by a particular artist, but then that’s art collecting rather than comic book reading). Storytelling is what drives good comics. And, by the way, I’ve stopped reading several comics after the first issue despite decent writing because I didn’t like the artwork, so it goes both ways.
08:08 Wed Jul 2nd, 2008
To reiterate what people have said above, I don’t think anyone should be punished for leaving the site; there are just too many factors that cause people to get distracted. (Even Titan went on an extended fishing trip!) Of course, if someone just “lost interest” and admits it, then I’ll have no interest in helping them, either. And I agree with Steve that a pitch can be “finished” for all intents and purposes, but that doesn’t mean you just leave it, not here at Z2H. Rather, you find new ways to engage the community. Do a hypothetical casting call for the pitch’s movie. Do a short story in the same universe. Etc., etc. Do whatever it takes to connect with your audience and show your enthusiasm. I, like many writers, do not find that self-promotion comes easy. I would much rather be writing than selling. But I love interacting with other writers and comic creators. Z2H makes socializing and promoting blend together in a way that’s actually enjoyable…although time-consuming, LOL. (Somehow I’m still at “Hero” level despite the distractions of summer and finishing Mind Crimes.)
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Fetternity
07:56 Tue Jul 1st, 2008
No one, and no pitch, exists in a vacuum. You cannot get away with creating something and walking away from it. Not here, not on Zeros 2 Heroes. I will personally not vote for someone who doesn't not show us what he's capable of. Take it from me, anyone can have an idea, a concept and a background. Executing it is a much different thing unto itself, so I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that a few script pages are needed. However, blogging is also important. It's at the core of Z2H; you generate hype, heat andf buzz by blogging, exchanging, etc. Z2H staff members are relatively available to us; creators cannot afford to be anything less. Since this is about crowdsourcing, and it is fan-driven, you need to get in touch with the fanbase to make it happen, all the way. However, it wouldn't hurt to have better blogging/publishing tools to use...